Manacube is losing Creative talent. Here is why, and what can be done.

Wizful

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#1
On May 22nd, 2020, a builder was graded B for the following plot:

http://prntscr.com/sm3gq7
http://prntscr.com/sm3hir
http://prntscr.com/sm3hua
http://prntscr.com/sm3i3j

The plot can be viewed in full at /warp Ex1 on creative.

As a builder on this server for seven years, and a former creative staff member who was known for grading harshly, I think this grade creates a very unhealthy precedent. I reached out to the staff member who graded the build, and paraphrasing, they responded with three points:

1) The build did not meet the terrain requirement per grading policy.
2) It was cluttered.
3) A certain level of detail is expected for higher grades.

Let me first respond to those three points.

The first point, and most prominent problem, is that not every great build needs terrain. Visit /oldcreative, and /warp ex2. Fly around that plot for five minutes, and you will begin to understand that not every A worthy, or even A+ worthy build needs terrain. Certain building styles, cyberpunk especially, required dense structures and may not need terrain at all. This is the case in the aforementioned build.

The second point disenfranchises whole styles of building, cyberpunk amongst them. The close-nit, tight alleyways of tall macro detailed structure defines the genre this plot is aiming to represent. Saying it is too cluttered writes off this entire genre. Creative staff sometimes do not understand different styles of building. This leads to an undervaluing of builds like this, and the devaluing of organics on the server is another great example.

Lastly, and most importantly, the final point talks about a certain level of detail being 'expected'. What is that level? Is it commonly understood? Are grades given with ample explanation, and tips on how to improve, or are they given with cold shoulders and silence? I asked more than a dozen creative players and high ranked builders about this build, and the all but one I asked agreed this plot deserved higher than B. B+ was what most agreed upon.

In addition, I asked them all the same five questions.

1) How long have you been a player on creative? What building experience do you have if any?

2) Do you think the grading system is fair?

3) Do you believe the grading process could be improved? If so, how?

4) Do you believe all staff are qualified to grade, without name calling?

5) Some builders and community members have expressed concerns than Manacube is losing talent because of its grading system. Do you think this to be true? Are builders prevented from improving?

---
Here is the list of people I asked (Proof at the bottom of the post):
[A] [ELITE] Arkhitecture_
[MVP+] MaqDonalds
[B+] Vationz
[B+] Farlag
[Member] Sinachu
[MVP] FrenchKnife
[C] OgreDrupe
[A+/Marketplace Builder] Aerios
[C+] [VIP] Nitm
[A+] [VIP+] Jordn
[A+] Wormstew
[C+] [MVP+] NotCoolHammers
[A+] IRiceI

It is important to mention that the validity of these players claims, especially relating to building, should be taken seriously no matter their grade. Many, if not all, expressed concerns around the validity of the grading system itself. Therefor, grades mean rather little here. Focus on their overall experience. I have included their answers, proof in the form of discord message screenshots, at the bottom of this post. I encourage everyone to read them in full.

To stop this post from being a novel, I will summarize the main points of the answers I received.

RESPONDENT EXPERIENCE

In response to the first question, the people I talked to were intentionally different ranks, with a focus on skilled builders. I tried to gather the opinions of as many B builders and above, while also talking to donators and community members. Some of the builders I talked to were highly skilled, long-time creative players.

FAIRNESS IN GRADING

The second question comes as a result of many active community members expressing concerns about foul play. Everyone I asked said the grading system was unfair. Some attributed that to the policies which create the backbone of the system. For example, a majority agreed that terrain should not be required for a high grade, and that requiring it unnecessarily restricted creative freedoms. Many also expressed concerns around favoritism.

I was showed, by those I talked to, around plots they thought were graded unfairly. I will not make a claim about fairness. What I can say, at the very least and without a doubt, is there are extreme discrepancies between certain graded plots. Players may manifest those disparities into what they perceive as unfairness.

Here are some quotes from the answers I received:
"I've also seen prejudice in builds, some staff will grade well-known people better, and grade friends better." - OgreDrupe
"Due to the in-consistent grading standards and un-clarity in feedback given to builds I do not think its currently fair. Grade based treatment amongst players based on how well known, or how liked they are is evidently visible (as bad as it sounds to say)" - Vationz
"It seems well-known people have a bit more of a chance. But the most popular people seem to get more 'free passes'." - Sinachu
"I feel like some builds are getting preferential treatment for some reason that some plots are being overgraded (given higher grades) for a build of lesser quality than others."**
"I think reviewing on here is so incredibly biased. It's an appeal to what a reviewer loves the most and in any competition that negative bias ruins any sort of fun in being creative." - Aerios

In any server with a progression system, special attention must be given to claims like these. It may be that these claims of injustice are rooted in grading inconsistencies, which in my opinion, is most important. I will discuss potential remedies at the end of this post.

GRADING PROCESS IMPROVEMENTS

The majority of creative players I talked with said the grading process was in dire need of repair. Most agreed that while grading, staff should give detailed reasoning behind the grade. In order to improve, detailed feedback is necessary. That means whoever is responsible for the grading should be able to defend the grade with sound reasoning, and solid examples. The current examples, warp [grade] are not updated. Players rely on this for consistency. In addition, many builders expressed that they would like to see other ranked builders grade their plots. Most agreed on a simple fact: a staff member should not be able to grade a build higher than they have achieved. When typing /grades, very little information is given on exactly how to achieve each grade, and coupled with the outdated grade warp examples, may lend to the inconsistencies players feel make the grading system unfair.

QUALIFIED GRADERS

Without exception, every player I talked to expressed concerns around how they believed some staff were not qualified to grade. Most of the answers I received can be summed in Vationz' great explanation:

"This is a hard topic to discuss really - since genuinely, all mods that are currently in there positions are great people. (very nice, friendly and useful when required). However disregarding that, i do feel some mods aren't qualified to grade in all honesty. Some mods amongst creative from what I've seen - are simply put it bad when it comes to grading for example, organics, or terrain (A lot of them seem to have preferred styles of building such as dominantly structure) organics tend to be neglected as such (A common discussion or fact known amongst mana players)."

When Vationz says it is a common fact known in the community that certain style/types of building, organics among them, are neglected- they hit the nail right on the head. This very fact may be the reason the build discussed at the top of this post received a lower grade than all the respondents agreed it deserved. Most answers I received discussed the need for qualified, ranked builders to grade other builders.

LOSS OF TALENT

The most important question was met with the most important answers. All respondents, for one reason or another, believed Manacube was losing a lot of creative talent. Most agreed this was due to the problems with the grading policies and procedures, which they saw discourage people from pursuing higher ranks. A loss of talent in Manacube's creative server is extremely important for two reasons:

1) The institutional memory of the creative server depends on retaining building talent so that players can learn from other past builds. If this cycle stops, it will only serve to diminish the creative population to the three people who roleplay high school drama in chat.

2) Retaining builders on a creative plot server means retaining a steady playerbase. A steady playerbase pays the bills.

CLOSING REMARKS

I talked to two longtime members of the server, and high ranked staff, who said that they had no worries about the grade of the first shown plot. That if there was a problem, they would have heard the concern by now. The reality is much different. I was not able to include many people I talked to because of fear of some form of retaliation. More were hesitant about contributing. Many of the community members I talked to expressed concerns of favoritism. When I was talking to these staff member, simply attempting to understand the rationale of the grade given to the plot discussed at the start of the post, they felt defensive. My intention was not to attack their decision, but rather to understand it. I was explicitly told that the decision making process was to be made behind closed doors, in staff chat. In my opinion, this is not a good environment to spur creativity.

I want to also mention that there were individuals I spoke to, mostly staff members and one graded builder who agreed with the grade given on the plot discussed at the top of the post. Not everyone on the server is in complete agreement on the exact details of the grading system. That said, the overwhelming majority of the creative community recognizes there are serious problems.

I will never bring up a problem without offering my prospective solutions. Here is what I think can be done to improve how the community feels about the grading system.

First, working with the community and talented builders within, staff should revisit the warp [grades] and establish strong precedents everyone agrees on. This was set the backbone of the system, and ensure everyone is on the same page. By speaking with the community, it is clear that the first plot mentioned in this post was seen not as a B but as B+. Perhaps that can be a good starting point.

Secondly, creative staff should revisit their grading policies. If most of the building talent in the server agrees that you don't need terrain for a higher grade, for example, this policy should not exist. At the very least, some sort of compromise should be reached. For example, maybe terrain is not necessary to achieve any grade beneath [A]. It seems revisiting how staff approach different styles, cyberpunk and sci-fi among them, is also important. The thought process behind grading organics, the community agrees, must also be revisited.

Thirdly, the process in which grades are given should be revamped. The first thing is to ensure a high degree of transparency behind the decision making process. Staff should, on the plot they are grading, place signs explaining their decision in detail. This will allow the broader community, and the graded player to learn from their builds. It will preserve institutional memory and encourage people to develop their skills. The community agrees that staff who are not ranked at or above the build they are grading should not be involved in that decision. The best way to ensure grades are given fairly might be to intertwine talented builders in the decision making process somehow.

Closing, I believe that the Manacube staff, an excellent and kind group, will take this feedback at heart. These members of the community felt the need to speak up for changes they believed would benefit this server. They should be praised for doing so. Their feedback should be meticulously reviewed. More than that, it should be implemented wherever possible. I want to thank all the community members who helped out, and like them, hope the community is heard loud and clear. Let's work together to improve this wonderful community and ensure its bright future.

MESSAGE PROOF













 
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Maq

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#4
ayyyyy :D finally took the time to read through that lmao hopefully things go well!
 

french

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#5
Thanks for getting it out there! :)
 
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Aloro

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#6
Just so players are aware, the Creative Team have seen this thread. As far as I know, Christian is responding to this in Discord to Wizful.
 

Tas

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#7
Hello,

This was a fascinating read. I've seen a number of long forum posts like this before, I've written a few, and I have to say that rarely have I felt compelled to read in full. Especially given the topic, Creative being the server that I have the least play-time and interest in. I think you have masterfully argued your points, and although I have no experience with Creative grading, building, terra-forming, etc., based on your evidence and reasoning I'm inclined to agree with you.

Something that I do have experience with, however, is Parkour map submissions. Over at Parkour I think we have a wonderful system for grading maps. All submissions are public and can be commented and reviewed by any player. Map Judges' decisions are publicly visible and must be detailed, thoughtful reviews of the map. Map Judges are trained carefully and almost always have prior experience submitting and judging maps. This creates a positive and immersive atmosphere for submissions, as judges will often refer to a player's review in their decision and some judges invite players (usually established Mappers) to tag along as they judge.

Perhaps this could be an approach to be taken for Creative grading. I've often wondered why it is private, unlike map submissions, as I cannot say that I have ever had a negative experience with a judge's decision, or at least one that couldn't be resolved satisfactorily.

Cheers!
 

Christian

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#8
Hi everyone!

We have seen your concerns regarding the grading system. We just want to remind everyone that if you ever disagree with a grade that was given, you are more than welcome to message any creative staff member with your opinion and reasoning of why you disagree. We will take the time to re-evaluate the plot if necessary and talk among staff and the submitter. However, we do not want anyone to feel like they cannot come to us with issues or concerns of any kind, that is why we are here. I personally have always told members to please message us with ANY suggestions/concerns that you may have and I know my fellow creative team are opened to the same. This being said, I'd also like to clarify that we have a grading system that gives us the most fair/best suit grade for the builder. We have a channel where ALL creative mods VOTE and give input on the plot. Please do not think just because one staff member claimed it that they are the ones who make the ultimate decision of the the overall grade. We as a team decide together, and as you can see we have creative staff who range in the different grading tiers which is pretty fair. We always give a reasoning when we close out a submission if it did not qualify for a grade or a higher one then their current grade. Once again if you have ANY suggestions/concerns about anything PLEASE let us know as we're happy to be able to answer any questions/concerns you maybe have to the best of our ability. In regards to the warp examples, we already have a list of examples over 25, we are just waiting to get unlimited warps to be able to set them. My discord is IIChristianII#2013 if you need me, and to find any other creative staff members discord, you can find them on the community discord as well.

Thank you,
Christian.
 
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Tas

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#9
Hi everyone!

We have seen your concerns regarding the grading system. We just want to remind everyone that if you ever disagree with a grade that was given, you are more than welcome to message any creative staff member with your opinion and reasoning of why you disagree. We will take the time to re-evaluate the plot if necessary and talk among staff and the submitter. However, we do not want anyone to feel like they cannot come to us with issues or concerns of any kind, that is why we are here. I personally have always told members to please message us with ANY suggestions/concerns that you may have and I know my fellow creative team are opened to the same. This being said, I'd also like to clarify that we have a grading system that gives us the most fair/best suit grade for the builder. We have a channel where ALL creative mods VOTE and give input on the plot. Please do not think just because one staff member claimed it that they are the ones who make the ultimate decision of the the overall grade. We as a team decide together, and as you can see we have creative staff who range in the different grading tiers which is pretty fair. We always give a reasoning when we close out a submission if it did not qualify for a grade or a higher one then their current grade. Once again if you have ANY suggestions/concerns about anything PLEASE let us know as we're happy to be able to answer any questions/concerns you maybe have to the best of our ability. My discord is IIChristianII#2013 if you need me, and to find any other creative staff members discord, you can find them on the community discord as well.

Thank you,
Christian.
I have just a small question. Why is terrain generally considered more important than other styles of building? Although I don't play creative much, I have seen this to be true in the A builds and higher. Is there a specific reason for this- is that just the style of building that Manacube aims for? If so, why is that? Ok maybe the question isn't so small. Thanks!
 

Shinxray

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#10
Okay so like you know, I'm not a creative staff (I still know some little creative stuffs) and I'm friend with creative staff, so I have a weird point of view on what you said, but I really wanna reply about the « Fairness in grades » that tick me so much. Oh and I will compare this to parkour maps submissions, since I think plot grades and maps submissions are quite similar in some points.

So I saw a lot of people thinking (well in your post) there is favoritism in grades. This hurt me a lot because most of the Creative staff judge a plot together, compared to Parkour Map Judge that are allowed to judge maps alone. So I think saying staff friends get better grades is kinda bullshit. Moreover, we don't even have this problem with Parkour submissions while this favoritism issue could be way more frequent on Parkour than on Creative (If someone wanna refute what I said about Map Submissions, feel free messaging me and I will go kick some map judges ass if it's actually true, but it should be not).
I personally think grades depend on the staff's point of views, everyone have his own preferences of builds (mine is humans/monsters organics for example), so I guess I kind agree about the « some styles are neglected » but that more because creative staff have their own preferences, if we ever have a crea staff that love sci-fi builds, then this style will be less neglected. But then just apply for crea staff, you might already know there is not a lot of Creative staff so if you wanna help, you know what to do (Being good at buildings is not the only requirement tho).
I don't really wanna give a big opinion about the plot, as I don't have the skill to do an architecture like that (I'm an organic lover, but I'm really bad with other stuffs), but the plot from what I saw looks quite unique and cool, but is somewhat missing something ? (I would love to see some aliens shaped organics or things like that, but that only my opinion, I guess I'm too much an organic lover x'D)

I'm gonna be honest, but I really had the feeling what I read was a propaganda, I know you wanna help, but some parts are quite... harsh ? (Like the 4th question was not needed imo, idk if this should be removed, but probably turned in a different way, because if someone tell me the same things with Map Judges, I will be very annoyed and offended)

Oh and if you wanna react about what I said, let's do this in private, I don't wanna create a war on this thread, it's only my opinion, I'm not even a creative staff, and please don't go annoy creative staff, if they want to respond, it's their choice.

Also I have a last question, is there any people you asked opinion that was in difavor to the questions you asked, or all the players you asked opinions have (kind of) the same opinions as yours ?
 

Tas

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#11
This hurt me a lot because most of the Creative staff judge a plot together, compared to Parkour Map Judge that are allowed to judge maps alone. So I think saying staff friends get better grades is kinda bullshit in my opinion. Moreover, we don't even have this problem with Parkour submissions while this favoritism issue could be way more frequent on Parkour than on Creative (If someone wanna refute what I said about Map Submissions, feel free messaging me and I will go kick some map judges ass if it's actually true, but it should be not).
I have spoken to you about this before, you know my opinion about it, so that is a topic for another day xD
I'm gonna be honest, but I really had the feeling what I read was a propaganda, I know you wanna help, but some parts are quite... harsh ? (Like the 4th question was not needed imo, idk if this should be removed, but probably turned in a different way, because if someone tell me the same things with Map Judges, I will be very annoyed and offended)
Well like you said, not to be insulting but not every parkour mod is always a great map judge either, and not every mod wants to be.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
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#12
So I saw a lot of people thinking (well in your post) there is favoritism in grades. This hurt me a lot because most of the Creative staff judge a plot together, compared to Parkour Map Judge that are allowed to judge maps alone. So I think saying staff friends get better grades is kinda bullshit in my opinion.
I mean everyone's entitled to an opinion like you say and who knows, maybe i am wrong? & I'm sorry if i did offend anyone in regards to what was quoted in this forum post. However, that being said we can only speak our minds and it can be hard sometimes not to believe or feel this way after witnessing what seems like such a miss-match of grade placements distributed out amongst a variety of people. Also, i genuinely do feel i stand from a non bias-viewpoint purely because I never really have been so 'hot' on caring about a grade, sure its a great achievement and all but that isn't the purpose of me/some of us in regards to building. It's almost there as a reward, a sense of satisfaction and drive to become better? A title of respect i suppose? & Myself and others, evidently feel in the same position.
- It's not just a select few salty peeps, lmao (I think this has been made clear with the level of support and from my experience player-based comments in-game)

& the reference to just inside this post wouldn't be correct, this is very well a discussed issue amongst builders over at creative ;/

That aside, once again my intention was not to pick fights, or disregard anyone else's opinion.. i just wanted to further my opinion and clarify the reasoning for my earlier comments. I do not intend for this post to upset/anger or target specific people in anyway, i just feel there is room for some-kind of improvement to the grading system in one way or another.

- Thank you :)
 

Shinxray

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#13
I mean everyone's entitled to an opinion like you say and who knows, maybe i am wrong? & I'm sorry if i did offend anyone in regards to what was quoted in this forum post. However, that being said we can only speak our minds and it can be hard sometimes not to believe or feel this way after witnessing what seems like such a miss-match of grade placements distributed out amongst a variety of people. Also, i genuinely do feel i stand from a non bias-viewpoint purely because I never really have been so 'hot' on caring about a grade, sure its a great achievement and all but that isn't the purpose of me/some of us in regards to building. It's almost there as a reward, a sense of satisfaction and drive to become better? A title of respect i suppose? & Myself and others, evidently feel in the same position.
- It's not just a select few salty peeps, lmao (I think this has been made clear with the level of support and from my experience player-based comments in-game)

& the reference to just inside this post wouldn't be correct, this is very well a discussed issue amongst builders over at creative ;/

That aside, once again my intention was not to pick fights, or disregard anyone else's opinion.. i just wanted to further my opinion and clarify the reasoning for my earlier comments. I do not intend for this post to upset/anger or target specific people in anyway, i just feel there is room for some-kind of improvement to the grading system in one way or another.

- Thank you :)
Yeah don't worry, I know your intention was not mean, I mostly replied on things I know are false and that I'm actually against, for example when I'm judging maps I try my best to not pick maps from someone I could be biased. So when I saw that, I was really ticked while it's not even something that concern me.
 

Wizful

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#14
Hello,

This was a fascinating read. I've seen a number of long forum posts like this before, I've written a few, and I have to say that rarely have I felt compelled to read in full. Especially given the topic, Creative being the server that I have the least play-time and interest in. I think you have masterfully argued your points, and although I have no experience with Creative grading, building, terra-forming, etc., based on your evidence and reasoning I'm inclined to agree with you.

Something that I do have experience with, however, is Parkour map submissions. Over at Parkour I think we have a wonderful system for grading maps. All submissions are public and can be commented and reviewed by any player. Map Judges' decisions are publicly visible and must be detailed, thoughtful reviews of the map. Map Judges are trained carefully and almost always have prior experience submitting and judging maps. This creates a positive and immersive atmosphere for submissions, as judges will often refer to a player's review in their decision and some judges invite players (usually established Mappers) to tag along as they judge.

Perhaps this could be an approach to be taken for Creative grading. I've often wondered why it is private, unlike map submissions, as I cannot say that I have ever had a negative experience with a judge's decision, or at least one that couldn't be resolved satisfactorily.

Cheers!
Appreciate your feedback. This post is likely to have ongoing discussions. I hope you will follow them.
 

Wizful

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#15
Hi everyone!

We have seen your concerns regarding the grading system. We just want to remind everyone that if you ever disagree with a grade that was given, you are more than welcome to message any creative staff member with your opinion and reasoning of why you disagree. We will take the time to re-evaluate the plot if necessary and talk among staff and the submitter. However, we do not want anyone to feel like they cannot come to us with issues or concerns of any kind, that is why we are here. I personally have always told members to please message us with ANY suggestions/concerns that you may have and I know my fellow creative team are opened to the same. This being said, I'd also like to clarify that we have a grading system that gives us the most fair/best suit grade for the builder. We have a channel where ALL creative mods VOTE and give input on the plot. Please do not think just because one staff member claimed it that they are the ones who make the ultimate decision of the the overall grade. We as a team decide together, and as you can see we have creative staff who range in the different grading tiers which is pretty fair. We always give a reasoning when we close out a submission if it did not qualify for a grade or a higher one then their current grade. Once again if you have ANY suggestions/concerns about anything PLEASE let us know as we're happy to be able to answer any questions/concerns you maybe have to the best of our ability. In regards to the warp examples, we already have a list of examples over 25, we are just waiting to get unlimited warps to be able to set them. My discord is IIChristianII#2013 if you need me, and to find any other creative staff members discord, you can find them on the community discord as well.

Thank you,
Christian.
Christian I appreciate your response. Thank you most of all for contributing.

I'd like to make a only one point responding to your statement. In your comment you say: "This being said, I'd also like to clarify that we have a grading system that gives us the most fair/best suit grade for the builder. " I think this is the most telling phrase in your paragraph. After reading my post, a collection of a dozen well known creative players speaking out against what they believe is a broken and unfair grading system, you deny all their feelings in one clean swoop.

If the grading system was fair, this post would not have been necessary for me to make. Clearly, either you are ignoring the feedback of some of your servers best builders, you misunderstand the post, or you didn't read it. I encourage you to reread their answers underneath the MESSAGE PROOF section.

Thanks again.
 

Wizful

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#16
Okay so like you know, I'm not a creative staff (I still know some little creative stuffs) and I'm friend with creative staff, so I have a weird point of view on what you said, but I really wanna reply about the « Fairness in grades » that tick me so much. Oh and I will compare this to parkour maps submissions, since I think plot grades and maps submissions are quite similar in some points.

So I saw a lot of people thinking (well in your post) there is favoritism in grades. This hurt me a lot because most of the Creative staff judge a plot together, compared to Parkour Map Judge that are allowed to judge maps alone. So I think saying staff friends get better grades is kinda bullshit. Moreover, we don't even have this problem with Parkour submissions while this favoritism issue could be way more frequent on Parkour than on Creative (If someone wanna refute what I said about Map Submissions, feel free messaging me and I will go kick some map judges ass if it's actually true, but it should be not).
I personally think grades depend on the staff's point of views, everyone have his own preferences of builds (mine is humans/monsters organics for example), so I guess I kind agree about the « some styles are neglected » but that more because creative staff have their own preferences, if we ever have a crea staff that love sci-fi builds, then this style will be less neglected. But then just apply for crea staff, you might already know there is not a lot of Creative staff so if you wanna help, you know what to do (Being good at buildings is not the only requirement tho).
I don't really wanna give a big opinion about the plot, as I don't have the skill to do an architecture like that (I'm an organic lover, but I'm really bad with other stuffs), but the plot from what I saw looks quite unique and cool, but is somewhat missing something ? (I would love to see some aliens shaped organics or things like that, but that only my opinion, I guess I'm too much an organic lover x'D)

I'm gonna be honest, but I really had the feeling what I read was a propaganda, I know you wanna help, but some parts are quite... harsh ? (Like the 4th question was not needed imo, idk if this should be removed, but probably turned in a different way, because if someone tell me the same things with Map Judges, I will be very annoyed and offended)

Oh and if you wanna react about what I said, let's do this in private, I don't wanna create a war on this thread, it's only my opinion, I'm not even a creative staff, and please don't go annoy creative staff, if they want to respond, it's their choice.

Also I have a last question, is there any people you asked opinion that was in difavor to the questions you asked, or all the players you asked opinions have (kind of) the same opinions as yours ?
Shinx. I appreciate your response.

I'd like to respond to a couple points in your post. I know you asked for me to take this to discord, but that would deprive the community of involvement in this discussion, which is the reason I made this post.

First, you state: "I'm gonna be honest, but I really had the feeling what I read was a propaganda, I know you wanna help, but some parts are quite... harsh ? (Like the 4th question was not needed imo, idk if this should be removed, but probably turned in a different way, because if someone tell me the same things with Map Judges, I will be very annoyed and offended)"

I understand where the might be twisted. Here is how you know my intention was only to critique the system. In my discussions with creative players and builders, the fact that some staff were not qualified to build came up often. Many creative players think that staff should have at least B/B+ to grade. My point in asking this question was to draw out such ideas. You can tell I didn't want people to attack staff because I asked them to not name people.

"Also I have a last question, is there any people you asked opinion that was in disfavor to the questions you asked, or all the players you asked opinions have (kind of) the same opinions as yours?"

As I said in the post, the only people who disagreed with the community's feelings in the post were staff and one builder. I will not name them but their opinion was highly valuable to me. The reality is 99% percent of the people I talked to disagreed with them.

Thanks again for your contribution.
 

Christian

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Christian I appreciate your response. Thank you most of all for contributing.

I'd like to make a only one point responding to your statement. In your comment you say: "This being said, I'd also like to clarify that we have a grading system that gives us the most fair/best suit grade for the builder. " I think this is the most telling phrase in your paragraph. After reading my post, a collection of a dozen well known creative players speaking out against what they believe is a broken and unfair grading system, you deny all their feelings in one clean swoop.

If the grading system was fair, this post would not have been necessary for me to make. Clearly, either you are ignoring the feedback of some of your servers best builders, you misunderstand the post, or you didn't read it. I encourage you to reread their answers underneath the MESSAGE PROOF section.

Thanks again.
Hi there, Wiz, again.

We have very much read this thread as a team already. I clearly state in my response, if they have any questions/concerns/suggestions they are MORE than welcome to dm me on discord. Also to as why I jotted down my discord in the response as well :D.
 

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Hi there, Wiz, again.

We have very much read this thread as a team already. I clearly state in my response, if they have any questions/concerns/suggestions they are MORE than welcome to dm me on discord. Also to as why I jotted down my discord in the response as well :D.
I'm glad the team has read it. I hope they will take the feedback of a large portion of their talent seriously, and look forward to seeing future changes.

I'll make sure to contact you on discord if I have an further questions. Thanks again for making yourself available for the community.
 

Shinxray

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Shinx. I appreciate your response.

I'd like to respond to a couple points in your post. I know you asked for me to take this to discord, but that would deprive the community of involvement in this discussion, which is the reason I made this post.

First, you state: "I'm gonna be honest, but I really had the feeling what I read was a propaganda, I know you wanna help, but some parts are quite... harsh ? (Like the 4th question was not needed imo, idk if this should be removed, but probably turned in a different way, because if someone tell me the same things with Map Judges, I will be very annoyed and offended)"

I understand where the might be twisted. Here is how you know my intention was only to critique the system. In my discussions with creative players and builders, the fact that some staff were not qualified to build came up often. Many creative players think that staff should have at least B/B+ to grade. My point in asking this question was to draw out such ideas. You can tell I didn't want people to attack staff because I asked them to not name people.

"Also I have a last question, is there any people you asked opinion that was in disfavor to the questions you asked, or all the players you asked opinions have (kind of) the same opinions as yours?"

As I said in the post, the only people who disagreed with the community's feelings in the post were staff and one builder. I will not name them but their opinion was highly valuable to me. The reality is 99% percent of the people I talked to disagreed with them.

Thanks again for your contribution.
Like I said, I guess you want to help and you said you didn't wanted to attack anyone, but you got the reverse since a non creative staff like me got offended, now think about Creative staff that are concerned. I really think you could have turn this well without giving (at least for me) the feeling of being harsh and "superior" to current Creative staff.

Also why not putting the opinion against what you said since there is one ? It's not like those opinions are bad, as I would have liked seeing different opinion and not just the same things and opinion from the concerned staff.
 

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Like I said, I guess you want to help and you said you didn't wanted to attack anyone, but you got the reverse since a non creative staff like me got offended, now think about Creative staff that are concerned. I really think you could have turn this well without giving (at least for me) the feeling of being harsh and "superior" to current Creative staff.

Also why not putting the opinion against what you said since there is one ? It's not like those opinions are bad, as I would have liked seeing different opinion and not just the same things and opinion from the concerned staff.
Shinx,

Thanks for you question.

In my post I write: "I want to also mention that there were individuals I spoke to, mostly staff members and one graded builder who agreed with the grade given on the plot discussed at the top of the post. Not everyone on the server is in complete agreement on the exact details of the grading system. That said, the overwhelming majority of the creative community recognizes there are serious problems."

The reality is clear. The vast majority of the creative talent believes grading policies and the process needs updating. That is the argument I want to highlight. The one builder I talked to who agreed with the B grade given to the plot discussed in the post I did not discuss the overall system with. Everyone else I discussed the system with agreed it was flawed in some way. I would be shocked if the player who agreed with the B grade said the system wasn't flawed, and even if they did, they would be substantially outnumbered by the rest of the community who genuinely feels this way.

Hope that answers your question. Thanks again.