A Rant About Parkour Design

zzykrkv

Dedicated Member
VIP+
zzykrkv
zzykrkv
VIP+
Joined
May 29, 2020
Posts
238
Ratings
203 5
#1
Hello, this will be a bit of a slightly controversial rant about how a lot of the time our lust for unique jumps brings a very negative impact on the quality of our maps.

To begin, it seems that using a variety of blocks is so highly praised that people are willing to sacrifice the look of their parkour for the sake of adding different blocks that may not even make that much of a gameplay difference. It is important that the parkour also has a theme, otherwise it looks out of place and ugly. I’ve seen many great looking builds which I think have been undermined by the ugly parkour that is slapped around it.

It is important to understand that more height doesn’t necessarily add more difficulty or vary the gameplay. Remember, ticks are 50ms, so there are only 5 possible ticks midair when you can land on elevation. This means that a +0.5 is the exact same as a +0.75 because you land on the same tick. A +0.125 is the same as a +0.4375. This is important to understand, as this means there serves very little use for strange blocks with unusual heights such as beds and daylight sensors.

Varying a block doesn’t necessary add any variety to the gameplay itself. For example, I’ve seen many levels use half beds, which usually look really out of place. There is absolutely no reason why these blocks should be used when there exists non-atrocious looking blocks such as SLABS. Another example of a common tier 1 / 2 block that should not be used is a cake. The only extra difficulty this offers is 1 pixel or 0.0625 blocks. Unless it’s a well-made curve jump of sorts, it provides no NOTICEABLE difference in difficulty. Another example of this is the use of daylight sensors. These blocks are generally quite ugly in most builds, so instead they should be replaced with other blocks such as trapdoors, or slabs. Most of the time they are not necessary. Another example of ugly blocks being used are cacti. 90% of the time, these are exactly the same as a chest. The only time this would be different would be if you were jumping from a chest or cactus to the other block. I have even seen someone use a completely out of place piston head when a normal block could have perfectly substituted. Another example is how some people feel the need to use repeaters on barriers. Not only does this look absolutely horrible, this can easily be substituted with some carpet or snow, once again providing NO CHANGE in difficulty. The list can go on and on. People are trying too hard to produce uniqueness that they are sacrificing the actual theme itself. Spamming random blocks only make the parkour look messier and ruins the theme.

Furthermore, one should understand that some blocks have the same hitbox, and this should be considered when choosing what block to use. For example, cake, cacti and chest all have the same hitbox length wise. Flower pot is the same as a tier 2 cocoa bean. Heads are the same hitbox as cobble walls. In some versions ladder is the same tangible hitbox as trapdoor, which is the same as a door. Tier 1 cocoa, end rod, piston head and fence have the same width. Cobweb and water have the same hitbox. Upper brewing stand and pane have the same width. While some of these examples are more applicable than others, it perfectly demonstrates that once again, adding strange, messy and unusual blocks does nothing.

I think that this habit of using the most exotic blocks available stem from, in my opinion, laziness. In lots of maps, all I see are either pretty linear jumps, annoying low ceilings or basic jumps where you curve around a corner. As a result, the only real way to make these interesting are to add weird blocks and give the illusion of interesting gameplay. However, the result of this is simply repetitive boring gameplay churned out and overused to a point when not only are these maps incredibly unappealing, but boring and repetitive. In a way this mentality of “UniQuE jUmpS” had backfired and as a result created many messy, boring levels, half of which I forget the theme halfway through because the parkour is not in any way sticking with the theme. Instead of using ugly and out of place brewing stands and piston heads, try to add some other features like some interesting curving instead of just 1 corner to jump around. Instead of spamming brewing stands to try and spice up the parkour, add some unique blockages.

Ultimately, I’ve seen so many maps where a really well made build gets ruined by a messy, sloppy and out of place parkour that is repetitive and bland. Most of maps that I play I forget, because they all feel the same. Vines, pistons, brewing stands…. Etc. This is NOT the way to make good parkour. Instead of using boring linear jumps with strange blocks, people should try experiment with their jumps, make it interesting, add some tricky blockage, have some precise neos, add a squeeze, maybe include some less basic curving. No amounts of cocoa beans, lava, cake, brewing stand, daylight sensor, piston, head, enchantment table, etc will make a unique parkour if they aren’t used well.

RANDOM BLOCKS DON’T MAKE GOOD PAKROUR.

Now for an example

I literally went on a random medium map and found exactly what I mean.
2020-06-18_15.56.50.png

Starting off, brewing stand, cake, piston. The cake, as ive stated, provides no noticeable difference with a jump like this, but i'll let it pass as the theme is muffin.

2020-06-18_15.57.53.png

This is what I mean. Linear, repetitive curve jumps. The only way to make this part 'unique' was to add different blocks.

2020-06-18_16.00.03.png

Why this red pane? The color doesn't match with the theme at all.

2020-06-18_16.01.25.png

Once again, there are simple corner jumps where the only uniqueness is obtained from adding different blocks.

2020-06-18_16.02.07.png

The enchantment table is not fitting at all. An upper slab would have provided the EXACT same jump.

2020-06-18_16.03.38.png

Did there really need to be a cactus? That hint of green makes this look like a vegetable muffin. Also, the piston here is the exact same thing as a whole block.

2020-06-18_16.39.31.png

Why is there any need for a comparator? Just add a carpet and you get the exact same jump but without the out of theme look.

TL/DR design your jumps better rather than changing the blocks. Half of the time it doesn't even change the gameplay.
 

EvanTech

SrMod | Mentoring
Senior Mod
EvanTech
EvanTech
Senior Mod
Joined
Apr 21, 2020
Posts
719
Ratings
352 39
#2
While I do understand your point, I disagree. Not completely, but I do mostly disagree.

My main counterargument here is that the parkour will be bland and repetitive otherwise and the variety of block hit boxes provides unique jumps that otherwise can't be replicated with regular full blocks. An example of this is the brewing stand to cake jump. While the cake is only a pixel shorter, it is still a pixel and every millisecond counts when it comes to parkour. You have to work around the brewing stand to make the jump instead of just landing on a full block and going to another half block which gives a totally different feel than the brewing stand to cake. Doing this all the time will get boring really fast and there will be nothing special about doing parkour maps.

Next, the looks. The unique blocks may not perfectly fit the theme of a build but partnered with my last reason, everything will get boring. And this isn't to be said about all of the maps, many maps incorporate parkour perfectly into their theme and don't spam random blocks, it just depends on the look and feel of the map. It can be the difference between a floating object and full scenario such as a floating singular muffin and a castle courtyard. To make parkour that naturally flows with a muffin isn't so easy but building parkour in walls and buildings is a lot simpler. Everything depends and unfortunately some maps suffer the burden of difficult parkour design but the effort added to make the map more exciting should be respected and appreciated because they could've not tried as hard and made a much more boring map.

Hopefully you see this and understand my points!
 

zzykrkv

Dedicated Member
VIP+
zzykrkv
zzykrkv
VIP+
Joined
May 29, 2020
Posts
238
Ratings
203 5
#3
While I do understand your point, I disagree. Not completely, but I do mostly disagree.

My main counterargument here is that the parkour will be bland and repetitive otherwise and the variety of block hit boxes provides unique jumps that otherwise can't be replicated with regular full blocks. An example of this is the brewing stand to cake jump. While the cake is only a pixel shorter, it is still a pixel and every millisecond counts when it comes to parkour. You have to work around the brewing stand to make the jump instead of just landing on a full block and going to another half block which gives a totally different feel than the brewing stand to cake. Doing this all the time will get boring really fast and there will be nothing special about doing parkour maps.

Next, the looks. The unique blocks may not perfectly fit the theme of a build but partnered with my last reason, everything will get boring. And this isn't to be said about all of the maps, many maps incorporate parkour perfectly into their theme and don't spam random blocks, it just depends on the look and feel of the map. It can be the difference between a floating object and full scenario such as a floating singular muffin and a castle courtyard. To make parkour that naturally flows with a muffin isn't so easy but building parkour in walls and buildings is a lot simpler. Everything depends and unfortunately some maps suffer the burden of difficult parkour design but the effort added to make the map more exciting should be respected and appreciated because they could've not tried as hard and made a much more boring map.

Hopefully you see this and understand my points!
Ok, so I understand where you are coming from, but that’s my main point. Although a brewing stand may be unique, it doesn’t fit very well with the theme. Now, I get that it’s fine to use them, but they are really overused, and a lot of time, the effect on the parkours look simply is not counteracted by the extra gameplay. About the brewing stand to cake jump, I personally don’t think this is a bad jump as the theme is muffin after all, so a cake is fitting. And above, I have mentioned that this jump is not the best example. My point is that if a unique block is not used in a way that really spices up the gameplay, then it just becomes an odd-looking block. And with lots of these levels, this is the case. Don’t get me wrong, I have seen the brewing stand be used well, but at the same time, I have seen lots on the contrary. Is it really worth it sacrificing the look of a level just for a brewing stand? The brewing stand isn’t even my main concern. I have mentioned that my issue with looks is that people are adding blocks that 1. Look out of place, and 2. Don’t affect the gameplay at all. I have pointed out some examples of this above.

Now more about gameplay. Yes, you are partially right. When it comes to parkour, every pixel matters, but to an extent. With the cake jump, though the jumps is so non tight that 1 pixel produces almost no noticeable difference. Unless you run head on into the wall at a near perpendicular angle, you’ll most likely make it. Once again, this cake isn’t the best example. I’d like to hear why you disagree with some of my other examples. Also, hitbox of a block is not the only judge of a jump’s uniqueness. Rather, I think it’s the worst judge of uniqueness, as normally, whether a block is 6 or 4 pixels, you’d still jump the same way unless they were placed differently. That’s the bigger problem. When a huge chunk of the map is just jumping and curving right, any sort of special hitbox loses its value. It’s as if you’re just doing 1 block jumps but each jump is a different block. Its like doing an obby on roblox where you just jump straight but each block is a different shape.

Now, about repetitiveness. You are right. When something is done over and over, it becomes repetitive. I strongly feel this is the case with these maps. They are so common yet all so similar. Why? Because the parkour is often filled with the same blocks. That’s why I dislike brewing stands so much. They’re so overused they are no longer unique. These maps are so common they have become generic. I don’t dislike anyone who has created these maps, I simply think that people should rethink the way they design their parkour.
 

Bugsnax

Dedicated Member
MVP
Bugsnax
Bugsnax
MVP
Joined
Apr 22, 2017
Posts
229
Ratings
225 19
#4
this whole post is very valid + kudos to the real good map creators such as kub, pres, and casey. other people just bandwagon off their ideas and make shit pk as a result imo
 

IPattyI

Forum Legend
PATRON
IPattyI
IPattyI
Patron
Joined
May 12, 2019
Posts
1,097
Ratings
501 11
#5
I agree with most of your sentiments, and I appreciate you taking the time to write so extensively on the topic. I feel that in our quest to have maps have as many different blocks utilized in their parkour, we've: a) prioritized jumps' "physical appeal" while disregarding jumps' technical uniqueness, and b) now transformed those once so-called "unique" blocks to use for parkour (like brewing stands, enchantment tables, etc.) into the norm and have rendered them more boring and uninspired than the most regular of blocks. I've noticed this has become a bigger problem as of late as many up and coming mappers have sacrificed making technically entertaining parkour for the sake of utilizing as many different blocks for their parkour. Personally, as a map judge, that's not what I want to see. You can concoct parkour that uses every single MC block in existence all you want but if you just use them for straight forward and unoriginal jumps that recycle old ideas and bring nothing new to the table, then it's no different than utilizing the same block repeatedly. Yet, I do recognize that we shouldn't just stop using these types of blocks entirely and resort to using their, at times, blander yet as effective counterparts. They all have a time and a place. It's up to the mapper to utilize them in the most technically and physically appealing ways possible without having to worry about a block quota.
 

zzykrkv

Dedicated Member
VIP+
zzykrkv
zzykrkv
VIP+
Joined
May 29, 2020
Posts
238
Ratings
203 5
#7
my worst fear was that the creator of this map saw this post......
sorry man, hope you don't hate me too much xD
 

Quinny

Forum Master
PATRON+
Quinnyp
Quinnyp
Patron+
Joined
Dec 19, 2019
Posts
874
Ratings
878 13
#9
I do agree to an extent that there are maps where there's excessive amounts of weird blocks that don't match the theme for any reason in particular. I used to think really similarly when I was building my first map. I thought, "this is kinda stupid, why does my parkour need to be so varied using weird blocks, it feels pointless and it ruins my build". Here's my rationale now. How many people actually care about the theme of the map? How many people are actually closely inspecting the build as they do the parkour? I think the reality is lower than I or most mappers would like to admit.
This is why the uniqueness of the parkour is held up higher than the build to an extent. If you take out a lot of the "weird" blocks, a lot of the parkour created from the newest set of requirements looks the same from most people. There are mappers that are AWESOME at building parkour that is always interesting and it never feels the same. I can admit that I have probably designed jumps in the way you're talking about, just because I was prioritizing variety over blending into the theme.
Not everyone quite possesses the level of understanding that you have presented here. Consider the main demographic of the people that come to play parkour on ManaCube. Most of them have never heard of ticks, or pay attention to block height differences much. A good majority of them don't even join in the right version to start with...sometimes the power of illusion is ENOUGH for people to find jumps more difficult or unique.
I'm not saying more effort shouldn't be put into integrating the parkour better. I would defnitely reject or put maps into reviewing if it's clear there wasn't even an ATTEMPT to blend the parkour into the build. Sometimes there's only so much you can do to match the theme. People try their best since our standards are on the weirder/pickier side nowadays.
One small thing also, as a user of daylight sensors, I will defend them as they can be used on top of ice for a slippery slab, which is all I try to use them for, or if I want the jump to be easier to see rather than a wood slab on a wooden build
 
Last edited:

Shinxray

SrMod | Parkour Manager
Senior Mod
Shinxray
Shinxray
Senior Mod
Joined
Sep 6, 2017
Posts
1,115
Ratings
695 11
#10
Hey !
Do not forget that the beauty of a map is subjective, I personally love using daylight sensor because I think they looks cool and they have an interesting hitbox (Slippery slab like quinny said). I understand that sometimes some jumps are used weirdly and could be replaced with something else (the piston head and the repeater on Muffin for example are useless I know that too, with the difference of what it looks like, I also think it looks weird), but that maybe not the case of the builder.

I also think using a medium map as an example is not the best idea, do not forget those maps are aimed for beginners, the cake jump for example, even if it's 1 pixel different of a slab, it's absolutly not the same jump, mostly for someone that is not that good at parkour. Same thing for the enchanting table, maybe it's same for you as a slab, but it's still 2 pixel harder than a slab, and that can change a lot for beginners. We might have the same things for some insane maps, but I think that just being very picky when their might be other good points.

About blending the parkour with the theme, I try doing it when I can, but I don't wanna force myself not using some blocks just because it's not related to the build. If I wanna use a piston head somewhere, that because I wanted to and that because I can't replace it with something else that I think is better. For heads or cobblewall, I use a cobblewall when I can link it to a wall, I use a head when I need to let it float (and I generally add a fence under), I add something in a pot when I think it's better with something in, I used a half bed because I wanna use one and because I think it's better on the jump I wanna make,. But that not everyone case, and they do what they want. Sometimes some blocks are used simply because the builder think it was cool using it now, maybe you think it's stupid, and I agree sometimes it's stupid, but again, it's subjective.

I agree that Muffin is far from being a perfect map, I think it's a very average map, but you think the map is not good, that maybe not the case of someone else, and if a map judge accepted it, that because he think this map is cool enough to not be rejected.

You are free to complain about maps, and I also agree random blocks don't always make good parkour, but every blocks have a reason to be used, and that depend of what the mapper wanted to do, being a shitty reason or not. And in the case of this map, we didn't think it was shitty enough to reject for that.
When I judge a map, if I have more important reason to reject it than accepting, then I will reject it, and that also mean we don't only accept perfect maps, only accepting maps that are at least worth being accepted.
 

zzykrkv

Dedicated Member
VIP+
zzykrkv
zzykrkv
VIP+
Joined
May 29, 2020
Posts
238
Ratings
203 5
#11
Ok, so here’s my response to some of the replies here.

To begin, the enchantment table in the example actually doesn’t make a difference. As I have previously stated, because you land on the same tick, which is the game’s physics clock. So whether its -0.5 or -0.75, you have the exact same amount of ticks to make the jump. This can be pretty easily proven by examining the y level at each tick.

1592550412764.png

Here is the beginning of the jump



1592550431752.png

Look at the y level here. It is about 0.236 up



1592550445468.png

Next tick. If you see here the y level shows 64.6.
What does this mean? Any elevation from ~ 64.6 to 65.736 falls under the same tick of landing, aka a +0.236 Is the same difficulty as a -0.9. The fence to slab is -0.5. the fence to enchantment table is -0.75. Both fall under the same tier. This means yes, they are the exact same jump.

However, I do now see that I have failed to acknowledge any psychological effects that a certain block may have. You always seem to play differently when under pressure compared to when you hae nothing to lose. I also get that certain jumps can affect a player differently by simply changing the block’s look. I have done this myself in my map, where I have used an enchantment table solely to make the parkour look more difficult.

I don’t think that these blocks should be avoided. I feel as if people should make jumps unique via changing the overall design. For example, a 3 block jump from a brewing stand to a cactus may use unique blocks, but what would be better is maybe having a unique blockage that needs to be avoided. What makes a jump more unique is what inputs or motions are required, not the shape of the block you land on.

I’ll give an example of what I mean. Take maps like 2b (insane), whomps fortress (expert) or spyro (medium). These maps are really well made, partially because: a, the JUMPS are varied, not the landing blocks, and B, the parkour, despite being unique, follows the theme well. It’s fine when these exotic blocks are used now and then, but when an entire parkour is based on these blocks, yet they provide little uniqueness when looking at a technical aspect, that becomes a problem.

It was nice to hear all your thoughts on this.