Making good parkour

[jacobsfunparty]

After making 1 terrible map. (Which to my defense I didn’t make a majority of the parkour for) I have learned that I really have no clue how to build good and enjoyable parkour.

I have also noticed that fun parkour doesn’t always align with the guidelines with what mapjudges are judging for. For example the ever controversial block variation. I understand why this is something that is looked for on maps but people just take this way too far in my opinion. (By the way I’m referring to expert and insane map for the most part)

I have a few questions. What are certain qualities of parkour that make it really fun to play? What are maps that I can look at that do have really quality parkour(expert or insane preferably)? How do you balance having block variation without being too block spammy?

Thank you for coming to my ted talk

 

[Elly_x]

Hey Jacob, this is something I also struggle with and hopefully soon going to sit down with a mapper and he is going to teach me how. I never realized how intricate making parkour was and how much practice it really takes! I made one but it didn’t meet the guidelines and my block variation was in clumps rather than spread out. Right now I’m just sticking to my dropper maps haha!!

 

[SSM_GOD]

I like parkour that is as easy as possible. Perhaps you can make a water slide? without holes. and checkpoints please <3

 

[nqahhh]

To me, any parkour map that doesn't go all in on one mechanic makes it a good map. When I play something and its just constant ladder jump after ladder jump, etc. it makes me not want to complete the map. A good map needs variety throughout and a good setting to bring the parkourist in

 

[french]

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with a few similar jumps spread out the map (however that's up to the person building the map and the person judging the map). Then again I enjoy more speedrunable parkour, which probably contributes to way I don't mind as much. Overall I like most parkour as long as its not something that takes me 13 hours to do lol. A parkour map being fun mostly comes from personal preference imo. A good map needs to not be overly repetitive as it gets boring, but if there is no consistency it also gets boring ._.


(this do be a grammatical mess LOL)

 

[PyroTortilla]

Hello,

I figured I'd give my input on your question as both a player and a map judge (and a mapper I guess lol). Basically what I look for in maps is just proportionality - having the same jump 3-4 times is obviously worse on a 20 jump map than a 100+ jump map. Repetitiveness for me is when there are large sections (if not the entire map) of just the same thing - whether that be a section of just ladder parkour, regular quads, etc. Take the early maps, like Colors or AnimalCrossing - I think a majority of players would agree that those maps are quite boring to play through.

In my opinion as a player, I believe that a "fun" map is one that has not just a variety of blocks, but a usage of those blocks to create an interesting jump. For example, it's better to have fences, heads, and blocks on a map than just blocks, but if you put two heads on top of another against a wall and a fence below them, you now have a jump where you have to land on a certain part of the fence avoiding the heads - this is using multiple blocks to create something interesting (made a diagram because I can't talk parkour without sounding confusing https://prnt.sc/uzzu5k).

I know you're a great parkour player with a lot of skill, so I'm looking forward to whatever parkour you end up building. Have a great day!

 

[khirina]

I saw this post and it really started jogging my mind, so i'm gonna write a whole ass essay if you don't mind. I think I can talk about this subject by now because I hit double digits in maps created a few days ago (flex)

For reference, i'm only gonna talk about insanes because making parkour for easy-hard and expert for the most part is a different experience. Im also gonna use El Ateneo and SaturnV for reference because they both encompass what I want to say

There are multiple factors that go into making a good pk. Im gonna talk about all of the ones I can think of, starting with the build.

BUILD: This may seem strange because the build and pk are generally separate in peoples minds (probably because they are very different and the map requirements talk about both of them separately), but a good build is important for good pk. Path progression is a major part of pk and can really hurt the pk if it isnt good. For example, in El Ateneo I made a big mistake with the path progression because the ceiling for most of the pk is too low, which forces a lot of 2bc-3bc jumps, which isnt very fun. Make sure the path incorporates the whole build and doesnt restrict space (another reason why floating pk is so good; it can be built easily without taking up big space. Please give us floating pk mods i beg of you).

Difficulty: Difficulty is the first thing that comes to mind with insane maps, and the top ten easiest and hardest insanes are popular because they are in those lists. Its very important having difficulty, and there are three criteria I think of when making difficulty in insanes: checkpoints (im gonna call them cps), pk and length. cps are mentally difficult and can ruin a map if they are placed poorly, pk is the actual difficulty of the pk and length is both mental and physical. Im gonna talk more about these in the next part, so dont worry. I have noticed that most easier insanes have 0-1 of lengthy cps, hard pk or lengthy total map (around 120+ is my go to). Harder insanes have 2-3 of these things. El Ateneo is an easier insane because it has easier pk and more cps, but is a longer map. SaturnV is a harder insane because it has hard pk and is a lengthy map but has more cps. Follow these rules for making difficulty in maps.

PK, CPS AND LENGTH IN MORE DETAIL: About the pk, there are two main types of difficulty: actual difficulty and artificial difficulty. Actual difficulty is very rare on mana because of the skill cap of mana, such as no bwmm or 45 strafes. You have to find other ways of making actual difficulty without movements like those. Artificial pk is a lot more common, and I define it as pk that is very easy with proper setup. Many "hard" jumps on mana are actually very easy with proper coords and/or facing, and you can beat every insane on mana (apart from skiresort maybe) with just semi hh, c4.5, hh timing and pessi. Actual pk is much more fun so I recommend trying to create that, although its difficult with the rules.

The cps are pretty simple; harder pk should have more cps, and easier pk can have less cps. Harder pk can have less cps but its difficult to pull off successfully. Also, dont put the hardest jumps at the end of long cps, this is bad and nobody likes it

Length is another thing; longer maps are just harder to pull off. The pk has to be really fun for longer maps to be enjoyable. Something like Valley is way too long for the quality of its pk which makes it unfun, while 2B pulls off length really well.

BLOCK VARIATION: This is a fun one. I'm just gonna say it here: random block spam =/= fun pk. You absolutely should not choose jumps based on specific block usage. You can actually get away with little block variation if you use lots of real variation (different movements and jump types, neo spam is no bueno but using neos every now and then is fun) and mix things correctly. Just dont spam random shit and you should be fine. What pyro said is also right and important; mixing blocks to make new things is cool

DISLIKED BLOCKS: Some blocks are more enjoyable than others, and after 900 hours of time here I can say what people dont like.
-brewing stands and piston heads (similar bounding boxes - look it up on https://www.mcpk.wiki/wiki/Blocks if you dont know what I mean - unenjoyable blocks)
-enchantment tables (usually clash with the build and allow for 1.9+ skips)
-soulsand (more of a personal grudge, annoying and glitchy)
-lava (literally never use lava oh my god it is so bad)
-snow (actually a nice block and should be used but be aware of glitches)
-stairs (same as snow)
-landmines (awful pk design; should work like the ones on ibis but are instead stupid and annoying)

THE NUMBER ONE TRICK TO GOOD PK: The absolute best advice I wish I got before making my insanes is this: actually test them. Dont just test the individual jumps, you should play the whole map in chall mode following the cps. zzy does a good job at this on his yt channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTbl5AFU269ocUU8LJcvppA <--- yw buddy) so you can do that. Really testing your map will help you determine the annoying, inconsistent and overall enjoyability of the jumps and map. Remember there will be mental pressure when playing the map if it gets accepted so account for that.

IN CONCLUSION: Follow the long cps, hard pk and length of the map closely, you can adjust the difficulty by changing these things (I recommend more cps for enjoyable pk, the mental aspect isnt really fun unless youre doing rankups). Have movement and (some) block variation but not in excess, and make things mix well (dont just have sections of panes or whatever). Inconsistent and more "luck based" pk is bullshit and try to avoid it. Also, really test the map yourself and get other people to tell you what they think (testers with mapper is good; testers with mapper and who are good at pk are way better).

That's my say on the question, im sorry for writing a massive essay of a response but theres a lot that goes into good pk. I also didnt cover everything, only the basics. Im sure I forgot some shit so if you have a question, ask me or anyone with mapper thats trustworthy.

Ok have fun and please dont make bad pk :(

 

[jacobsfunparty]

Thank you guys for your responses! This is exactly what I was wondering about and I am glad I was able to hear insightful responses. Hopefully, in the future, I will be able to make an expert/insane actually worth playing. (I'm serious guys don't play TheSkeld the parkour is terrible in every way possible)

 

[Presidenten]

It's good you ask and want put some thought into your parkour, because most new parkour has so damn low quality it makes them unfun.
I have so much to comment about this but khi already did a great job and pointed everything out.

I can point out some general things that I keep in mind when making a map.

- Make the map easier than you intended, people complain how new maps are harder than before. So make the parkour, then go through and nerf ALL jumps. (Think of expert being a long hard map instead)

- Random block spam IS NOT FUN. Don't be afraid to put the same type of block 2 times in a row. They don't have to be the same jump just because it's the same block. You can make hundreds of unique jumps with only one type of block.

- Floating parkour IS ALLOWED in some amount. Even though they make the build a little messy they are way more fun comparing to wall hugging parkour. I have never heard anyone say wall hugging parkour is fun.

- Color scheme in parkour, is not needed but raise the quality by alot. For example if you have a red and white build, make the parkour with red and white color scheme aswell.

If you want examples of these, look at my newer parkours. Beehive, Poseidon and Ikea.

 

[zzykrkv]

One minor note to add is cp placement and parkour routing. Lets start with cp placement. It may seem best to put a cp in a convenient place (like facing the jump at just where you need to be) where if someone fails they can just get straight into the parkour, but this encourages rushing, and if you're not careful, you can accidentally press the cp while falling, potentially getting you into an infinite loop. This has happened to people including myself, so it may actually be good to have a cp where you can't just leap straight into parkour.

This leads into the 2nd point about parkour routing. It's best to avoid directly stacking parkour on top of each other, as this also creates a similar issue, where its possible to fall and accidentally click a cp below. This is incredibly frustrating so it's best to avoid this. FUrthermore, this also leads to possibilities of unintentional cps, where with some observation one can click a cp above, making an unintentional fs. Look at extinguisher for an example of what i mean.

 

[BDOsborne]

Note: if you want to build a specific parkour difficulty make sure you have enough room, this eliminates the potential for skips, crammed pk and poor pk path progression. If your build turns out smaller than you imagined it to just knock it down a difficulty. Although don't do what i did and create a massive map and then use like a third of it lol, although it does make make for an impressive but rather useless sight (people once doing the parkour don't really pay much attention to the build other than their immediate surrounds).

 

[ampsterdam]

For me I like parkour that is similar to the theme of the map, because then I feel I can sort of get into the map and really enjoy it. A great example for me is TheTardis I feel like the pk in that is incorporated with the build and that's what I think makes it a great map. obviously there are other great examples but that's my fav that I have actually completed.

Edit: this may be very biased but I feel that my map LaserTag, whilst not a good build at all really, I felt as though I made the parkour actually fit with the theme of the map, I try and do this with most maps I help with or build myself as I feel that is a way that they can get easily accepted.

Edit #2: I find maps which I completely suck at not fun (obviously) but I think everyone still wants a challenge! Don't make it completely impossible or so easy that it can be done by just any player, (I mean if you're making an easy map you could make it so any player could do it but I still wouldn't recommend it). As I have only made easy maps I am not too experienced in making more difficult maps so I would probably not be the first person to listen to. Along with what I have said you should definitely not forget the normal requirements (build, originality, variety and many more) And as Khi said, avoid using blocks which can glitch and cause other bad stuff. I agree with pretty much everyone else though and what they said. GOOD LUCK!

 

[Tas]

Have fun while you're building parkour and don't critically overthink every jump that you make. When your parkour is 120 individual science experiments, checkpoints and the map overall no longer play well and it becomes less of a "course" and more of a "series of jumps."

I usually make a hotbar (8 slots for blocks plus w/e axe) and those are the jumps for that checkpoint. That way I'm not constantly navigating through the Creative inventory to find the "perfect block combination" for every jump, and I keep some flow while I'm building checkpoints.

At the same time, don't overuse WorldEdit. It's great for making a floating sign or a flowerpot under a fence, but don't feel like these layers of blocks stuck together are always necessary. It's fun just to grab some blocks and build some jumps with your bare hands.

The downside to relying heavily on WorldEdit is that it's easy to get carried away adding to and buffing jumps. Now that I've got my jump, why don't I add an upright trapdoor to the side of it to make it a wider angle? And maybe a pane on the other side to add a squeeze element to it. Oh, and you'll start standing on an upside down piston arm and finish on the third stage of a carrot crop's growth. All of a sudden you have these weird mangled contraptions of what could've been fun, simple jumps.

Don't get me wrong, WorldEdit is great and I use it all the time. Just be aware of how you're using it and how its uses are affecting the parkour. Because it does affect the parkour.

I know you're getting a lot of information here, Jacob, after what was a pretty simple question. My biggest piece of advice is my first, which is to have fun. Remember, you're building something for yourself and others to have fun doing. It's not rocket science. Relax, build, test, submit.

 

[BluePottwal]

After making 1 terrible map. (Which to my defense I didn’t make a majority of the parkour for) I have learned that I really have no clue how to build good and enjoyable parkour.

I have also noticed that fun parkour doesn’t always align with the guidelines with what mapjudges are judging for. For example the ever controversial block variation. I understand why this is something that is looked for on maps but people just take this way too far in my opinion. (By the way I’m referring to expert and insane map for the most part)

I have a few questions. What are certain qualities of parkour that make it really fun to play? What are maps that I can look at that do have really quality parkour(expert or insane preferably)? How do you balance having block variation without being too block spammy?

Thank you for coming to my ted talk

well try make it as balanced as possible on the difficulty... (even tho first cp on insanes are typically easier just to trick people into doing them). also make non-annoying jumps or at least put a checkpoint before them. If the parkour is speedrunnable people will like it:)