The current state of survival "competition"

Fluffy-hime

Well-Known Member
PATRON+
Fluffy_hime
Fluffy_hime
Patron+
Joined
May 22, 2017
Posts
84
Ratings
150
#21
I came up with an idea we called "dimensions" which would be a way to prestige your island (/party) through many requirements that would take grinding rather than straight money. Some of these requirements include island/party collections which I thought was a very unique addition to the season that has a lot of ways to change the way the game is played if the extra step was added to it actually effecting the game.

When you prestige you will basically reset your entire parties balances, upgrades, and island collections in return for small buffs to sell prices, farming growth rate spawner speed, etc. I feel this will help the ever growing economy that we see with both game modes. These dimensions will also have caps on island level to force parties that want to compete for payouts to be more active.

These are just my thoughts feel free to comment below but I definitely agree there needs to be change to the current economies on both games. Here is the link to my full dimensions idea thing https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XD0HSOQZkVhcdulN0McqakpUIstG7rpJBjqHJcJOh6g/edit
Oooooo I'm actually really into the idea of this. Actually earning the buffs/upgrades through actual work, rather than with cash/mana would certainly fix the whole P2W issue that a lot of gamemodes face.

The main issue is the balance reset thing, as players could simply /pay someone to hold their money temporarily while they prestige. There would need to be some other method that will sink in-game money to delay the inevitable inflation that servers always end up dealing with.

If this ever gets considered for skyblock, I could certainly see it working for survival, with some tweaks here and there. Very interesting idea!
 

Mik

Forum Expert
ELITE
mtb130
mtb130
ELITE
Joined
Mar 31, 2017
Posts
254
Ratings
193 36
#23
Oooooo I'm actually really into the idea of this. Actually earning the buffs/upgrades through actual work, rather than with cash/mana would certainly fix the whole P2W issue that a lot of gamemodes face.

The main issue is the balance reset thing, as players could simply /pay someone to hold their money temporarily while they prestige. There would need to be some other method that will sink in-game money to delay the inevitable inflation that servers always end up dealing with.

If this ever gets considered for skyblock, I could certainly see it working for survival, with some tweaks here and there. Very interesting idea!
We have also thought through this and came to a conclusion that when shared to some members of the sb community was heavily disliked however I feel it would prevent this from happening and players would get used to it as time goes on.

The idea was like Olympus to make money completely non transferable and make mana the main currency for /ah and /cf. The reasoning behind this is that prices are not determined by the amount of alts people have its determined by grinding and gaining mana actively rather than afk. This would slow down the progression of the economy and I believe will help the server remain active and fun for the 9-15 month season we are seeing currently.

Money would be specifically used for island levels, and spawners which allowed for player who can't run that many alts to still have a chance at competing for top islands.

It would definitely take some getting use to as players have already been proven to not like big changes at first.
 

Mik

Forum Expert
ELITE
mtb130
mtb130
ELITE
Joined
Mar 31, 2017
Posts
254
Ratings
193 36
#24
Making spawners not the meta gotta be the goal or at least make an active grinding method which is a comparable per hour profit.
This would in return solve this because if you are only running alts for spawners you would get beat by players actually grinding for the requirements and prestiging

Not sure if if was on the document that I shared but there will be is level caps that force players to prestige their island if they want to compete for payouts. Once you hit the 2k is level cap, you will need to prestige in order to go to higher island levels.
 

Mik

Forum Expert
ELITE
mtb130
mtb130
ELITE
Joined
Mar 31, 2017
Posts
254
Ratings
193 36
#25
Also forgot to mention but there can be an infinite amount of these prestiges that could be added with slightly increased requirements and rewards. I only have 2 right now because I believe that it could take some time to get used to.

ALSO ALSO with this idea comes my idea of what to do with minions. Minions would now actually play a key role in the economy. Basically minions will work whether or not u are online and continuously add onto your /is collections to help you reach some of the high requirements. For example if you don't want to fish the 2500 fish, you would place down 8 fisher minions (Amount of minions per party/island would be upgradable through an island upgrade).

This will make minions actually worth something and I believe players will pay a lot to get their hands on some of the minions so that they don't need to fish or cut down wood.
 

SSM_GOD

Forum Legend
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Posts
1,447
Ratings
1,890 47
#26
Also forgot to mention but there can be an infinite amount of these prestiges that could be added with slightly increased requirements and rewards. I only have 2 right now because I believe that it could take some time to get used to.

ALSO ALSO with this idea comes my idea of what to do with minions. Minions would now actually play a key role in the economy. Basically minions will work whether or not u are online and continuously add onto your /is collections to help you reach some of the high requirements. For example if you don't want to fish the 2500 fish, you would place down 8 fisher minions (Amount of minions per party/island would be upgradable through an island upgrade).

This will make minions actually worth something and I believe players will pay a lot to get their hands on some of the minions so that they don't need to fish or cut down wood.
with my experience from olympus, minions are way too p2w and will just create another problem of 'richest stays the richest'. You can buy minions in the store directly, or buy 50 crates and get 20 minions. If minions are made beneficial, they should be made "rare" at the minimum in the monthly crates, and the price of them in the webstore should be nearly outrageous.
And with minions working while you're offline, that's basically just another alt. I think it would be better if they deactivate when you log off like they do now.
I also don't think that minions should count towards collection stats.
 

Mik

Forum Expert
ELITE
mtb130
mtb130
ELITE
Joined
Mar 31, 2017
Posts
254
Ratings
193 36
#27
with my experience from olympus, minions are way too p2w and will just create another problem of 'richest stays the richest'. You can buy minions in the store directly, or buy 50 crates and get 20 minions. If minions are made beneficial, they should be made "rare" at the minimum in the monthly crates, and the price of them in the webstore should be nearly outrageous.
And with minions working while you're offline, that's basically just another alt. I think it would be better if they deactivate when you log off like they do now.
I also don't think that minions should count towards collection stats.
With the current output of the minions we purposefully made it so that with one of each minion types, it would take 90 days to reach the requirements of the first prestige with doing nothing. The second prestige would require 180 days for these requirements to be reached. We purposefully took into account the p2w aspect of minions

This is also with maxed out minions which will take 187.5k mana each to upgrade to max. I do not see this being any sort of problem because those who activity grind everyday will easily out grind the minions along.
 

SSM_GOD

Forum Legend
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Posts
1,447
Ratings
1,890 47
#30
@SSM_GOD Do you think that the minions should take longer than 270 days for all the dimensions?
I don't think minions should be able to work towards dimension requirements at all. Otherwise, it's just more afk to win, even if it takes 300 days. They should be separate sources of income.

separate thoughts I had:
P2W items should be removed from webstore. Mana and world edit should have never been added there. The money can still be made from island expansions, island renames, perks to change biome, weather, time, etc. When you're making 6-7 figures a year from a hobby, with 140%+ of expenses covered, I think you can take steps to remove p2w from one of the most famous game modes on Minecraft.
inf chests, choppers, and minions should be rewards for milestones, direct or indirect. Maybe 1 'shop credit' for 1m mobs kills, then you can buy an inf chest for 1 credit, or 4 choppers for 1 credit. A kind of system like that. You know what I mean.

But, kind of in summary, you have to remember to keep the game no too complex but keep uniquity. I can never see things Island limiters, minions, auto farms, anything like that, making sense to the majority of players. But if you copy-paste what every other server has, then its lame.
I think more skyblock discussion should take place, but on a skyblock thread so it doesn't get mixed in with survival
 

Mik

Forum Expert
ELITE
mtb130
mtb130
ELITE
Joined
Mar 31, 2017
Posts
254
Ratings
193 36
#31
Just wanted to start with I am not changing this to a Skyblock discussion. Sure this idea was made around Skyblock but the state of survival is the same as Skyblock where the game is boring and dying. I am just giving my opinion and changes that I would make on either server to possibly give ideas for additions to survival.

I don't think minions should be able to work towards dimension requirements at all. Otherwise, it's just more afk to win, even if it takes 300 days. They should be separate sources of income.l
I am going to disagree with this statement again. Afk to win is when afking is more beneficial than actively grinding and there is no point in playing the game. With these minions taking 360 days, this is just afk, not afk to win. The best islands will have finished all of the requirements with a combined effort of mostly actively grinding with a little help from minions. Minions are meant to help those who maybe don't have as much time as the top islands but still want to progress within the game mode to become one of the best islands. There is nothing that you will be winning if it takes 360 days to finish prestiging.

This minion system will also not be as p2w as other options on the store due to the fact that they would still need to be upgraded to max level with 200k mana.

separate thoughts I had:
P2W items should be removed from webstore. Mana and world edit should have never been added there. The money can still be made from island expansions, island renames, perks to change biome, weather, time, etc. When you're making 6-7 figures a year from a hobby, with 140%+ of expenses covered, I think you can take steps to remove p2w from one of the most famous game modes on Minecraft.
inf chests, choppers, and minions should be rewards for milestones, direct or indirect. Maybe 1 'shop credit' for 1m mobs kills, then you can buy an inf chest for 1 credit, or 4 choppers for 1 credit. A kind of system like that. You know what I mean.
This unfortunately is very unreasonable. I can assure you that Dakota is not making 6-7 figures a year. This is not a "hobby" it is his job. 60-70% of all profits are put straight back into the server with new plugins, wages and running the server as a whole. The rest of the money is as he has stated invested for the future (he has thought about creating a stand alone game). Although Skyblock and survival 2 of the most profitable game modes, they have to make up for game modes such as kitpvp and parkour which have less profits and factions which has 0 profits.

The idea of having certain perks for sale from my point of view is unappealing. I am not going to spend PayPal or cubits on a command as simple as change biome, weather, or time even if it is removed from the ranks. If you are going to make fly require a specific purchase from the store then it turns p2w and not fair for those who can't purchase it. This also in return is going to reduce purchases of ranks because in order to sell sought out for perks you would need to remove them from ranks which will get rid of any needs to purchasing the ranks.

We have played around with the idea of milestones for quite awhile now but want to see what is going to happen with the Olympus milestones to see what these rewards will be. I do not know if cubits are even going to be considered for it. It would be nice for them to be added as a reward for all players though.

But, kind of in summary, you have to remember to keep the game no too complex but keep uniquity. I can never see things Island limiters, minions, auto farms, anything like that, making sense to the majority of players. But if you copy-paste what every other server has, then its lame.
This is the balance that comes with creating a fun game mode. Currently there is nothing to me (other than the amazing community) that makes Skyblock or survival really stand out. Whenever new players join and ask what do I do the only answer I can come up with is "do /is quests. and get money". What to do with this money, I don't know.

I feel dimensions will work as a way to guide players to becoming better. They will have an actual and reachable goal to work towards rather than aimlessly wandering throughout the game mode confused. There will be more than "go for island/party top".
 

XALRK

Active Member
ELITE
XALRK
XALRK
ELITE
Joined
Nov 23, 2020
Posts
45
Ratings
13 1
#33
As one of the “big competitors” on survival, I felt it appropriate to give my 2 cents here as well.

At this point, survival’s competitive scene has stopped being a competition of who has the best skills for making money quickly, and has now become a competition of who is more willing to pump their irl money into this game. I’m not trying to say that’s a bad way of playing this server, because we all have our own ways to play that we find enjoyable, but it certainly allows for the competition to quickly get out of hand.

Some would say that the survival competitive scene is not just about the money, and I would totally agree. In the past, there have been leaderboards for best looking parties, which is something that cubits/cash can’t be used on to increase your position on that leaderboard. There have been /quests leaderboards, which involves actually doing activities in survival that don’t require money. There has also been a leaderboard for the most mob kills, which also doesn’t require cubits/cash. There are numerous other leaderboards, top souls and top /jobs level to name a few, that don’t require cubits/cash, but have not been awarded legends stars in the past.

So there is plenty of competition to be had and plenty of ways to get your own place with the big dogs, so to speak, but it could easily be argued that /p top is the biggest place of competition of them all. The party system is the core of survival, as it allows players to have protected land for whatever they wish to build/create. It’s what makes this server unique.

But the thing is, the main trait about survival is that there is no true end goal of the server, unlike skyblock and olympus, which have clear areas of focus to them. I’ve always believed that point of survival was to just explore, build, and most importantly, have fun. But as the op said, we’re not here to talk about that, we’re here to talk about the competitive scene.

As for “fixes” to these competition issues, i feel that it’s way too late in the season for there to be any viable solution.

It’s too late to remove cubits from the webstore, and it would be a bad business move for the server as well, since it does allow for the server to make more money. Completely disabling /cubit commands might be an idea to use on top of removing them from the webstore, as that stops them from being sold for in game cash, but that would mean having to disable those commands everywhere on ManaCube.

Removing any sort of rewards for leaderboard positions wouldn’t alleviate anything, because there are plenty of people who will still tryhard those boards anyways, because that’s just how people are and how they will always be. I don’t think the server would necessarily die from it, but it would definitely result it some people not caring about the server as much anymore.

Could there be other ways to fix that we just aren’t seeing? Probably. To me personally, the ultimate fix is to just not give a care about it all. Just don’t get caught up with the details, and just compete the way you want to, as long as you’re enjoying yourself and not purposely making others miserable. The beauty of a game like this is that you can make your own mark on the server in your own way. Buuuuut this is starting to get into that whole "just dont play competitively and have fun" idea, so I’ll just end my spiel there.

TLDR: Competition scene is brutal, don’t jump into it thinking that you’re gonna have an easy time getting to the top, unless you have endless money and/or free time. There is no “fix” for this that will make everyone happy. But what’s most important is to make your own fun; games are meant to be fun, having to compete with others can be fun too, but don’t get so caught up with the competition that it’s no longer fun for you.
On the topic of games, theres a place called /warp Rim thats basically a arcade. Also, maybe things will get fixed next season.
 

SSM_GOD

Forum Legend
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Posts
1,447
Ratings
1,890 47
#34
I think that now with the new Olympus season released with all the new features, it gives a great idea of how survival and skyblock could be. And how a long duration economy and competition can be created.
I personally think that these 2 modes should be a little more afk based than prison, but that might just be because they're secondary game modes to me.
I don't want these game modes to continue to become the same system, but an implementation of something similar in certain ways to the Olympus spawner system would be cool.
I think its still too early to really base anything off of Olympus, but just thought I'd revive this thread to see your opinions on how the Olympus reset addressed this issue.
 

Sonic_Raptor

Forum God
ELITE
Sonic_Raptor
Sonic_Raptor
ELITE
Joined
Jul 1, 2019
Posts
1,924
Ratings
1,787 69
#35
I think that now with the new Olympus season released with all the new features, it gives a great idea of how survival and skyblock could be. And how a long duration economy and competition can be created.
I personally think that these 2 modes should be a little more afk based than prison, but that might just be because they're secondary game modes to me.
I don't want these game modes to continue to become the same system, but an implementation of something similar in certain ways to the Olympus spawner system would be cool.
I think its still too early to really base anything off of Olympus, but just thought I'd revive this thread to see your opinions on how the Olympus reset addressed this issue.
I really like the changes its been obvious since Halfway through Survival Season 5 that Dacon has been working to combat afk2win and larger laggy farms on Manacube and I think Olympus reset has really outlined that vision and I think achieved it to a larger degree. Olympus's economy is very unique compared to Survival which will help it as well. What I'd really like to see in future for Survival and Skyblock is buffs to Slayer regions to keep them competitive with AFK grinding and a stronger meta through mid to end game.